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Happy 500 anniversary!

re: Happy 500 anniversary!

Lizbeth,

I have a different understanding of those passages that I would like to share. I assume you are talking about transubstantiation, the idea that those partaking of the Lord’s Supper are eating and drinking literally the actual body and blood of Jesus.

This word “is” in the Greek can be used in a figurative sense. For example, this same Greek term is used in Galatians 4:25, where Paul says that “Hagar is Mount Sinai.” This is obviously a metaphor and figurative because Hagar was a woman and not a mountain.

Notice when Christ originally said these terms, “This is my body” and “This is my blood,” he was physically in their presence. This, I believe, is evidence that this was not literal.
In Matthew 26:28, Jesus said, “This is my blood,” but in verse 29, He calls it “this fruit of the vine.” Did it change back? No, I believe this is proof that he was speaking figuratively. If it were literally His blood, He would not have called it “this fruit of the vine.”

Please also notice 1 Corinthians 10:17: “For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.” So now we, the members of the church, “are one bread.” Does this mean that the bread of the Lord’s Supper is literally us, and we eat ourselves? No, I do not believe it to be so.

Jesus used figurative language regarding himself many times. “I am the vine” (John 15:5). “I am the door” (John 10:9). Jesus was not literally a vine or a door in these instances, but this is figurative language.

Thank you, Lizbeth for bringing up these spiritual subjects. With all of the things going on in the world, it is nice to have a Bible study and focus on spiritual matters.

re: Happy 500 anniversary!

We have to look at the original Greek text to see what literal word was that was used in Greek, just because "is" appears in the English translation in various and several locations doesn't mean that the same Greek word was used every time when "is" was selected in the English.

This happens often.

In the Greek the word used for "is", in the English, when Christ said, "This is my Body... this is my blood" When the word, translated into English, that precise word, when it is used every time in the Greek means "this is nothing but this" meaning the Greek word never meant in any other location "this is LIKE". So it cannot in this one singular time take on a new meaning and mean "like".

Greek is our friend in this and always bring clarity.

The grammar rules also shines a light on many details. So for example there are many verses where in the grammar of Greek we learn that we are passive, passive recipients, but in our poor English we assume in many cases that we are the actors making a choice , so for example to "repent" in many occasions in the Greek where it is used in the verse, the Greek shows us clearly that God "caused us" to repent. English translations can leave room for many ways to read a verse, because the English words aren't as precise as the Greek. So there are many verses where we wrongly think we are the authors or deciders of this decision to repent but the greek makes clear that God gets the credit for that too! God caused us to repent.


Any how I am pleased that so many are digging into the Greek.

With that said, consider this, Christ wasn't saying He is "like"" a door, he said he IS the door.

Christ said it so it is so.

It is not figurative imagery. The door on your house is less of a door than *Christ is*. Christ* is* the door. No one can enter, in any other way than through him.

Christ's words are intentional, He is perfect God and if He meant something different He would have said something different. He would have said, "I am like a door" We can see that He uses the word "like" all over the place when he speaks symbolically. He uses "Like" when he starts parables and then He explains the meaning. When He speaks literally, he never says "it is like...this" and He never goes on to explain the meaning because the meaning is plain and clear.

: )

and no, I am not talking about transubstantiation. I am talking about what the word reveals, we often times can get in the weeds and make human reason mistakes when we try to explain how God's mysteries can be so. (I don't agree with how Catholics explain true presence of Christ, but He said it was his body and blood and if he meant something else he would have said that.)

This post was edited on Nov 03, 2017 09:48 AM

re: Happy 500 anniversary!

Quote: “We have to look at the original Greek text to see what literal word was used in Greek, just because "is" appears in the English in several locations doesn't mean that the same Greek word was used.”

I did look at the original Greek. The same Greek word was used in both locations.

Matthew 26:26 “This is (Greek - esti) my body.”
Galatians 4:25 “Hagar is (Greek - esti) Mount Sinai.”

This same Greek word is used in both cases. Hagar was a woman and not **literally** Mount Sinai. There are many, many uses of metaphors in the Bible. “Your word is a lamp to my feet” Psalm 119:105. God’s word is not **literally** a lamp. But it guides us and makes clear the way.

I agree that Christ is the only way to the Father, but I do not think that Christ is **literally** a door. In this context of John 10, if He is literally a door, then we are literally sheep.

Jesus also said, “I am the vine.” Christ was not **literally** a plant. If Christ was literally a plant, in this context, the disciples are **literally** branches.

Thank you for the discussion. Please do not interpret my words as argumentative.

re: Happy 500 anniversary!

I don't want to go too far with these discussions - disputing about words like "for" and "is."

It reminds me of this verse:

Remind them of these things, and charge them before God not to quarrel about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers. 2 Timothy 2:14

re: Happy 500 anniversary!

The Greek on Galations 4:25

Yes, the word "esti" appears but not in the location the English translation suggests that the actual word appears. The Greek doesn't say Hagar is Mount Sanai,

The greek says "is in" paired together, which is depicting a location.

Just because you can find a similar word pattern in the English in the Bible and find a similar word in the Greek doesn't mean you have found understanding of the verse in Greek.

You can't read the Greek by lining up word for word, grammar rules inform the content also. (Although if you go back and look at a Greek Bible you will see that it is clear that words don't line up in the way you had hoped.)

Grammar informs the content and makes clear what tense the verb is and what particular word the verb corresponds to.



In Galations 4 vs 25 the Greek does not say Hagar is Mount Sania.

It says this (the dashes are word not directly translatable but becomes more words in English)

-moreoverHagarSinaimount****isin****arabiacorrespondsmoreovertothepresentjerusalem

(I added the stars for location and the capital letters for clarity)


You have concurred correctly that She is not Mount Sinai but anyone who can read Greek would also agree.

You can't just look for a sentence in English from the Bible and assume that the Greek lines up in the same way for both sentances.

It is a complicated sentence in Greek, but the Greek makes clear that the meaning is just as described by you about Hagar.

But the Greek also makes clear that when Christ speaks about his body and blood that it is "nothing but this".

My point about the word "is" is, this, in the Greek the word for "is" has a concrete singular meaning, it means "this is precisely this" while in English the word "is" can mean "like". Our Bible translators knew what they were doing when they translated another word using the English word "like" and they used it repeatedly through out scripture and appropriately.



When we are being compared to sheep, it is clear that it is a comparison because the word "like" is used " and "as" to make clear that it is figurative language.


But with that in mind,


Christ did not say he is "like" a door.

He said he *is* the door.


Christ did not say this is "like" my body and "like my blood.

He said this *is* my body... this *is* my blood...

:)

I did not take your post as argumentative, "iron sharpens iron" it is good to look at these things.


This post was edited on Nov 03, 2017 11:16 AM

re: Happy 500 anniversary!


Quoting Mama Anna, who quoted Lizbeth:

L - "So when the jailer went home with Paul and Silas and his entire family was baptized, and knowing that families in those days were all of your kin brothers, of your father and all of their families and all of their servants, you are reading into the text when you claim that no child was there. They had no birth control. There is no clear text that says children weren't baptized."

M.A. - I think the passage is clear that all who were baptized in this instance also believed which infants and small children are incapable of.
-------

Amen. It is clear throughout the entire context of the NT that people were baptized After they repented of sin, believing on Christ Jesus as Savior (this was said in the passage Lizbeth quoted from Acts 2, Peter's sermon on the Day of Pentecost).

Lizbeth, I am glad that you were not offended by Mama Anna's posts. It seemed that you have been offended by mine, but I'm not sure why. As you said, "Iron sharpens iron" (Proverbs), and my only intent here in this thread has been to compare RC beliefs with the teachings of the Holy Bible in reply to the OP.

Eta: I also do not believe in transubstantiation, which is another unBiblical RC belief. Christ Jesus often employed metaphors, like "I AM the Door of the sheep", "I AM the Light of the world", etc.

I do not believe the bread and wine actually becomes His body and blood. That would violate one of the commandments which the Lord gave the Apostles in the book of Acts.

This post was edited on Nov 03, 2017 03:08 PM

re: Happy 500 anniversary!

Actually...

The Greek again.

In Matthew 18 verse 5
It says this.

"but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea"


The Greek word for little ones that is translated here is a word that means nursing child under 2 years old.

Christ him self says that a nursing baby has faith in him.

Infant Faith!

re: Happy 500 anniversary!

G8rtful to be clear (this is my second post in row)

I think when the Catholics tried to define how this could happen that they went to far.

But it is clear that Christ said this is my body, and there are other verses that speak of both Bread and Wine and Body and Blood, so the Bible says it, so it must be so. The CAtholics got into the weeds and dangerous ground when they said "this is how it happens", and then claim that the bread and wine are no longer there at all.


But I try to not speak about Catholics here.

Now, I have not been offended by you...lol


I do find it interesting that no one has listened to the show I posted a while back, I would love to have a better dialogue but as I said before it would help if you could at least understand some of my position (the radio show explains that) because it is difficult to have this discussion when you know so little about the verses we use to support our position. For me to have a full conversation on here in type would take us many years.

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