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Happy 500 anniversary!

re: Happy 500 anniversary!

Luther was a reformer not a protestant.

He hoped to reform the church back to the Bible.

He wasn't able to stop the Catholic Church from excommunicating him, he was stuck with that but continued to reform the church from where he could.

He was part of the conservative reformation. He looked at every thing that was Catholic and looked to see if it properly pointed to Christ, if it did he retained it, if it didn't he discarded it.

Then there was another reformation that was the protestant reformation that came after Luther, they felt that Luther didn't do enough, and felt that any thing that the Catholic church touched or looked at was filled with evil.

The discarded anything that even reminded them of the CAtholic church.

So for example these Protestors took to actively removing all art from their churches at that time, for example, amongst other things.

Luther sifted, as a reformer, protestants rejected all things "Catholic" /Rome.

gr8tful you have typed much and much of it is not really conducive to conversation on line.

This post was edited on Nov 01, 2017 07:28 PM

re: Happy 500 anniversary!

i've been listening to pastor John Piper's daily podcast about "heroes of the Reformation" excellent discussion on the life/challenges of Martin Luther is here; I've listened twice because I found it so interesting (Scottish scholar/theologian interviewed).

re: Happy 500 anniversary!

BTW, I love what he said to the RC leaders after having 24 hours in prison to consider whether he would recant those beliefs, or not. He said that if they could prove that his beliefs were not Scriptural, he would recant them. Instead of them being honest and searching the Scriptures about those issues, they wanted to kill him.


I love this, Gr8ful. And this is really the heart of any matter, isn't it? -- Is it Scriptural? Can it be supported Scripturally? Does the Bible speak to it?

It's also very telling when a person or group refuses to address actual issues Scripturally, and instead makes spurious or personal attacks.

That's what happened to Luther, and many others then, and since.

re: Happy 500 anniversary!

On a sadder note, I read somewhere that Martin Luther was vehemently opposed to Jews. He wanted them all killed.

Irrespective, the Reformation should not be thought of as condemnation of the Catholic Church so much as bringing the truth to the masses, in my opinion. And, Martin Luther really had little to do with that initially. He did not want anyone, but, those in Rome to read his thoughts. It was the “friend” who translated the 95 Thesis to German from old Latin that is the true hero. He had to know that the translation would risk Luther’s life.

I think when people started translating the Bible to other languages after this, the horse was out of the gate. So, even without the 95 Thesis a priest would have started translating eventually, I would guess. Maybe Google translate?

re: Happy 500 anniversary!

Acts 2:38-39New International Version (NIV)
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

This verse clearly says that Baptism is for the remission of sins, brings the Holy Spirit and this promise is for you and for your children and all who are far off. (It doesn't say this is for you and your children once they reach the age of accountability.)

G8tful I wonder if you would give these two Christian radio shows taught by Pastors a listen.
I can have thoughtful conversation with you on this topic if you like once this ground work is laid because then I wont have to type things out for 5 hours that are spoken in 2 hours.

re: Happy 500 anniversary!

First, I am extremely grateful for the reformation, and for its 500 year anniversary.

Second, on the topic of baptism. It doesn’t originate with Christianity. Obviously. If it did, John the Baptist wouldn’t have been doing it before Christ came seeking it. Baptism was an unofficial Jewish custom of cleansing, a symbolic spiritual cleansing (although I am sure there was some physical cleansing that occurred as a result of being plunged into the river or bath.)
Anyone could do it, including children, and it had nothing to do with salvation. It could, and often was, repeated multiple times.

Secondly, Christian baptism is not necessary for salvation. It is the physical, outward of one’s salvation. The showing to our church and the world that we have been saved, but no saving is being done at baptism. And if one has accepted the Lord as his or her savior but dies without being baptized, this is no cause for alarm. In addition, one can be baptized without truly accepting Christ as his or her Savior, and while the congregation may be fooled, God is not. May this person come to know Him before he expires.

Official RC doctrine does teach that baptism is necessary for salvation. Perhaps in (very) recent years they have backed away from this, but I was married in the RC church in 2001 and baptized my second dd in 2004, and that was the official stance then. However, “official stance” and actual practice are two separate things, and I can tell you, as a devout RC up to that point, never did I or anyone else I know for that matter believe that if my child were to die before baptism, that she would be withheld from heaven. Our belief was that the baptism removed “original sin” - a cleansing that isn’t unlike the Jewish custom I mentioned above,

Baptism by Holy Spirit, which is NOT water baptism, as many Christians confuse it, is an adult expression of faith that happens at the time of salvation. The exact time that you accept the Lord as your Savior and become saved. Has nothing to do with water baptism. Typically, non-infant water baptisms are used to celebrate this type of baptism as adults, and the RC (and some Christian churches as well) equivalent would be called confirmation.

*To RC's, their religion is not a denomination. They consider all Protestant groups to be denominations.*

I find this such an arrogant and offensive statement spoken by a self-righteous mouth. I have not been RC since shortly after my dd’s baptism in 2004, but in the 13 years since I left, I have seen very clearly why some people hold Christians in such contempt. It’s statements like these. Never, never once do I ever remember in all my years, a RC acting holier-than-thou. I’m not saying they don’t exist, but many (dare I say most) RCs are extremely humble, God-seeking, and God-pleasing types. They have an acute awareness of their sinfulness and their shortcomings and are slow to offer advice other than pray for God’s direction because they aren’t truly sure they have an answer and do not wish to lead you astray. I see this humbleness in Anne here on this site, and I remember it in Jenny in Maine (wherever she is now).

The RCs do NOT have any teaching about them not being a denomination. In fact, I don’t even know what your gibberish remark even means - you just spouted a bunch of nonsense with no more clarity than that possessed by an ostrich with his head firmly planted in the sand. At every RC Mass I ever attended (and there were many, in many states), a prayer was always said for all Christians - including themselves, and for the coming together of Christians based on what we share In common. Furthermore, RC do not have a fear of worshipping at other churches or events, although I can not recall ever seeing a nonRC worshipping at an RC church.

Sure, RCs have some practices (such as the Mary and Saints issues which are biggies for sure) but this does not mean they are not saved Christians, or that they are polytheistic (I have heard this) or any less than any other denomination.

In fact, if you care to post your exact denomination, we can return the favor and spend some time ripping it apart, if you desire.

Here’s a better suggestion actually: go visit a RC church and meet some actual RCs. Don’t worry, you won’t burn the instant you set foot inside, and getting to know someone different than you does go a long way in shedding some of the ignorance and prejudice I see you spouting here.

And yes, I am NOT a RC. I just like to take a stand against evil, even it’s disguised as a sheep.

re: Happy 500 anniversary!

All that is required for our eternal life is God's grace. He offers us grace through Baptism through with His saving word, the Lords Supper with His saving word, and to the thief on the Cross with His saving wors, the words of Christ saved him and the words of Christ save you.

John the Baptist was not the first to "baptize" the practice of baptism was well steeped into the culture, in those day they baptized everything, your couch your clothes, your donkey what ever you had.

Baptism changed when Christ changed it, with Christ you baptized in the Name of the Father and Son and Holy Ghost.

Read carefully all verses about Baptism.

Here are a few below, the test is clear.

1 Peter 3 vs 20...

... In the ark a few people, only eight souls, were saved through water. 21And this water symbolizes the baptism ***that now saves you****—not the removal of dirt from the body, but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,…

!!!Baptism now saves you! (the test is clear)

Romans 6 vs 4...

We were therefore buried with him*** through baptism**** into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

!!!Baptism buries us with Christ, the work of God Baptizing us through HIS word buries us with Christ and raises us too!

Colossians 2

In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15He disarmed the rulers and authoritiesb and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.c

!!!!Baptism is a circumcision done with out hands! (Note too that our loving God adopted Jewish children into his family through circumcision on the 8th day! Our Loving God loves your children too!)

Acts 2 vs 39...

Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39This promise belongs to you and to your children and to all who are far off, to all whom the Lord our God will call to Himself.”

There are many more verses about Baptism, and verses about to wash with water. In the Greek Baptism means to wash with water. So any where you see the word Baptism you could replace it with "to wash with water" and anywhere you see the words "to wash with water" you can use the word Baptism which is what the text says in original greek.

Baptism is doing something, and since we can not contribute to our salvation, we cannot bury ourselves With Christ, it is then God who is Baptizing us, and buries us with Christ.

This a the free Gift FromGod!

The Church was taught this by the Christ, and by the disciples who taught more and you can read the writings of the men who knew the disciples and they too agree baptism is for infants and saves you.

You only find division 500 years ago.

Before that the church was unified in the teachings of Christ, and when rationalism came into play people like Calvin a lawyer, said "that makes no sense so it must mean something else."

re: Happy 500 anniversary!

second post in a row,

the Bible clearly says in

Ephasisans 4 4-6

There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.


Yet many here say there are two.

The Holy Spirit comes to us with God's word and water Baptism.

Again, many are taught to question the plain and clear text.

"One baptism!

Baptism now saves you!"

These are the words of the Bible.
What matters is what the Bible says!


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